Suggestions for alpha version 0.4

[jumpy]

Well I wasted pretty much the whole day playing this game, and I think i've gone through enough of it to share what I think are a few good suggestions. I absolutely love how the game has a bit more of an rpg-like feel to it, with more elements such as exploration, managing funds, and purchasing upgrades. But because it's kind of a departure from the more fast-paced arcade style gameplay of the first few, I feel like it's time for a few changes to the core mechanics. Getting killed is now a much bigger deal as it can take a long time to build your ship up to a high level, and a lot more work is put into choosing modules now that they can be bought or upgraded. The ability to build an awesome ship just that way you want it is 90% of what makes these games great, and it's pretty annoying when all that work gets lost.

A couple things I can think of that could make this better. First, running out of oxygen really sucks. How about when you run out, someone tows you back to the nearest dock station or whatever (could be something like one of those friendly buoys, pirates would obviously just kill you and steal it). Then it's impounded and you have to pay a fraction of its price to get it back. This would be a lot less harsh than losing your ship and all your money, which often makes you want to stop playing.

It also sucks when you take a few big laser hits in the wrong place and you lose half your ship. This used to be just part of the fast-paced gameplay of the original, but now I think it would be nice if modules didn't get destroyed permanently. Maybe they just get grayed out and stops working (deactivating anything that's attached) and then enemy fire just passes through and continues to damage the internal parts of your ship. Then you could just retreat and be forced to repair everything at or above the normal purchasing price. This would stay challenging but not cause you to lose all your hard work. It would also make combat a lot more fun because you wouldn't have to worry about a single hit messing everything up, you could be a bit more aggressive and adventurous.


A few other small changes:

-The new interface - I absolutely love how even though this is a spaceship game, we're still using computers out of the 80's. Only using the function keys at first added to this effect, but it started to get tedious after a while. They're good for selection one of a few items out of a list, but in the menus when you have to move a selection up/down and left/right it would really be better to just use the arrow keys and enter button, as many real old computers would have done.

-Warehouses would be useful, but they are much too rare. I've actually discovered more upgrade stations (which should be the rarest) than warehouses.

-Banks and warehouses are a good way of saving some of your progress in case you die, but it's annoying having to travel all the way back to collect your money/parts. It would be nice if you had one shared account for all of them, but could only deposit/withdraw modules from a warehouse of equal or greater class.

-Oxygen tanks are extremely rare. In an 8-hour game i've only found two of them, and they were from one ship. Upgrading them also does not increase capacity, only health.

-Factories - these either seem to be way too good or pretty useless. Some make lasers or other useful but commonplace parts - I can see the point to these. But many of them make parts I almost never use (sprinklers) or make an unlimited number of very good parts that should be more rare (I spent a ton of money on golf-level repair modules). You also usually have to do a huge amount of travelling to get a specific part. I think it would be cool to replace these with merchants, they would have a limited stock of several different parts. Better items would be more rare, and the average level of the parts would be influenced by the level of the station. Inventory would get replaced every once in a while, so if you bought everything (or didn't see anything you liked) you could come back ten minutes later and look again.

-Salvage - killing enemy ships and selling their parts is and should be an important part of the game, but it can be very tedious at times to drag every single part on to your ship and then drag them off again back at the salvage station. How about something like a tractor beam? While using it you're slow and maybe can't fire your weapons, but you dont have to attach and then detach everything manually.

-Module trees fly apart when the root module is separated from its parent. Why not keep them in free-floating chunks? This would make rearranging parts of your ship much easier and would help facilitate the tractor beam thing mentioned above. You could also just have subtrees break off when the parent module is destroyed too, instead of having them be destroyed as well. It's always very annoying to miss the enemy's command module and blow up the girder next to it, making you miss all your salvage.


Wow this is a pretty big list of suggestions, but I'd really love to know if anyone (farbs especially of course) thinks any of them would be worthy additions the game.

[Vaconcovat]

Don't change the core mechanics of the whole series. Some things like module de-activation and the "free-floating chunks" change the whole series itself.

I think farbs did mention something about a COM station, that lets you either communicate with all stations within its huge radius, or link them together or something. But, I do agree that maybe banks could be linked: one bank does have multiple branches.

Factories need to be more... active. Either changing stock or having multiple items for sale - but if you do that decrease the spawn chance a bit.

I never had a problem with oxy. I only ever run out in early tiers or when I have an un-balanced ship (praise balance!) but I rarely will unbalance my ship out of greed. Also, I started a new game when we got the oxy modules and found 4 on the first two enemies. :\

---

I think because jameson is leaning towards the RPG-type game, different and distinct NPC personalities would be nice. The addition of being able to telnet to some passive ships, such as scrappers or just passers-by, would be awesome. That way, i'd be able to attempt to communicate with a needler

But, that's my hopes for the future. 0.4 - which i'm hoping is soon, i'd probably say dramatically increase the pirate spawn rates - specifically for the lower levels - and maybe try the idea of shared accounts with warehouses and banks. Also, the new shields and whatever other modules farbs has come up with.

[10tativ]

It'd probably make it too easy, but I absolutely love the idea of sending out an SOS to passers-by and fighting an enemy alongside them. Maybe they could decline if they are in the same family as another ship you've killed (once I defeated two sisters in inferno)... maybe there could be SOS stations, and you pay for a certain ship to come and help... maybe I'm just getting too excited.

I've literally just changed my mind about the module tree disintegration - I think players ought to just be more careful about where they hit

[amade]

I think Jameson's too easy now

I'd rather have it so that parts are easy to come by but death is also frequent. Death by enemy fire that is, instead of by asphyxiation. So maybe enemy numbers should be increased per spawn area or that they get an AI overhaul. I'm thinking that maybe you'd encounter 1 enemy ship per spawn point and if you don't kill him fast enough reinforcements will come in (they'd spawn from the edge of the screens ala Guardians). The higher the enemy tier the faster enemy reinforcements will come.

I concur that factories should produce more types of modules. Right now I think it's okay having 1 type per factory but if death is to occur more frequently getting new modules should be easier and slightly cheaper.

Warehouses could also be expanded: instead of just a few cargo bays make it a grid; and you select which module you want to load/unload by using the function keys to navigate around the grid. This way you can always store enough modules to restart your adventure.

As for oxygen modules, they're not so rare if you don't mind spending a few hours farming the low tier enemies frequently by docking>exiting>reloading the jameson. I've found so many I just chuck 'em into scrapyards. But if a higher death rate is implemented oxygen module spawning should also be increased.

If death is a frequent occurence and acquiring modules is easier then perhaps people won't be so attached to their superships because they won't have the chance to build one and won't mind dying as often as they did in the past series. Of course, if people still want to build superships they can still do so by storing modules in the expanded warehouses while flying around in a disposable-less-than-super-ship to collect credits and modules.

I still haven't died even once in 0.3 inferno. The only thing threatening me is getting lost in a maze of hot rocks and dying of asphyxiation before I find my way out but with so much effort made into mapping even that is a remote possibility.

[ggodeye]

I would love to see a menu option with a summary of the Newtonian calculations that I suspect are already used to determine the ships maneuvering. Specifically, I would like to see total mass, thrust & max speed for each of the q,w,e,s keys and angular acceleration & max momentum for a & d. Also would love for this new menu to show the center of mass.

Also would like to be able to export CJ ships so that they can be played in CS. This would make ship design discussions on this forum much easier and prevent "cheating" in CJ.

[dalaranj]

I keep losing this list so I might as well get my licks in while I have it around.

Silly Station Addition I would like to see

A station that accepts a piece that you input, and then creates copies of that piece at double factory price. In addition, unlike factories it can create parts only up to it's rank (rather than rank +1)

Simple Fixes

Prevent guardians that are equipped with torpedoes from firing until their spawn speed has dissipated.

Change the repair and upgrade menu options to look like this:

F1 Back
F2 V
F3 Repair/Upgrade
F4 <
F5 ^
F6 >


Unless you have reason to believe that people are not using keypad for VMEDS selections. Or, I guess, unless, it's intentionally hard to use.

Long Term Goals

A way to share map seeds with friends

A score page that lists details about your' performance on the current map (or a high score board but I don't know what it would track)

Difficulty levels that change oxygen availability/costs/weaponry damage/station type probability (or controls for users to set these variables when they generate a map)

Edit: Also this.

Jul 14, 2011 14:09:50 GMT 10 ggodeye said:

Also would like to be able to export CJ ships so that they can be played in CS. This would make ship design discussions on this forum much easier and prevent "cheating" in CJ.

A lot of people are going to want this.

Some other things to try out maybe?

Show the values from the last part of your' own ship that you selected on the HUD, so that pilots can track the power level of their main shield/sprint booster more easily.

Reduce the probability that an oxygen station will appear from 100% to 80% and see how that goes. (What the heck, it's testing. Try 50%.)

[iaanacho]

maybe add a factory that sells the oxy tanks for a higher price(like 1/2 mil or more) due to convienience and rarety and put it far from spawn

[scrander]

Regarding the inclusion of warp gates throughout the map: how about warp gates + multiple 1000x * 1000y maps, with the warp gates going back and forth between maps?

[traveltrousers]

I would like the ability to expand the screen horizontally, and perhaps with a link to remove the header and footer so there are no scroll bars too. I play full screen on a 13" laptop so play area is at a premium.

A 'nav module'' that shows a HUD with an expanding range according to level of module would be nice.

One key oxy refilling would also be great.

Increasing the oxygen tanks capacity when upgrading would also be nice. I was so annoyed when I spent all my money making my alpha module into a delta module only for it to be heavier

A tractor beam module that slowly attracts girders and then other attachments randomly onto the created tree would be cool. You would have to be careful you didn't end up shooting yourself on the way to the scrap yard. This could have a level too, so a charlie tractor only attracts charlie and lower modules and so on.

Ability to use the arrow keys to navigate the menus would be nice, although I'm quite used to it now.

How about one shot bubble shields too. Once they are depleted, they don't regenerate unless you repair them in a repair station.

Looking forward to 0.4 (and the final game)...

[jamesedwardsmith]

Why is the asteroid belt around the starting area so labyrinth and impossible to get through? There are so many dead ends and so few ways to actually get in or out of the thing. To make the matter worse, the map data you get regarding it from nav stations is useless for navigating through it quickly or safely.

If you don't spend a bunch of time exploring it in great detail as the first thing you do in the game (a very boring persuit with no material reward or feeling of progress), the chances of you not finding a way back in after your first excursion are very high leading to player death and frustration with the game.

[sfsdfd]

I played v0.4 for about eight hours yesterday - started from scratch, and built a ship that essentially circled the region twice, and found one of the secrets. (Still need to explore the southwest corner - too many hot rocks and sparse nav stations made for tricky exploration and a few instances of near-asphyxiation!)

Thoughts:

* The new oxygen stations are GENIUS. Really, really great. The way that the oxygen atmosphere grows to cover an entire area of space is terrific, too. (And it prevented at least FOUR near-deaths where I found myself returning to a space colony on the dregs of my oxygen tanks!)

However, the new oxygen stations have two small bugs:

(1) If you liberate other stations in a set and then liberate a first oxygen station, the graphics do something weird: they immediately show all of the other stations surrounded by oxygen, and then show oxygen flowing outward from the oxy station to meet the others.

(2) The edge of the oxygen environment is VERY bright - so bright, in fact, that it obscures everything else: other stations, opponent ships, even hot rocks. Destroying a ship while it's at the edge of the oxygen atmosphere makes for VERY difficult hunting-and-pecking to find small, salvageable parts. It even obscures the HUD! (Try checking out the nav output when you're at the edge of an oxygen environment.)

* Part selection is very strange. The emphasis on Planck shields comes at the expense of bubble shields: there were PRACTICALLY NONE in this game (notwithstanding guardians, who, of course, take their shields to the grave with them.) And having liberated over 100 stations, I've seen only two (low-ranking) bubble shield factories and not a single Planck shield factory... but probably 10 ramming-spike factories!

Even more extreme: In the entire game, I've yet to see a single oxygen module. Farbs, did you take these out?

* Also, stations generally seem to be more sparse in this space - more so than in previous versions. I think that the growing variety of stations is diluting the prevalence and clustering of ESSENTIAL stations. Two consequences of this:

(a) Seems like the density of nav stations is significantly reduced. There are some parts of space with no nav stations at all - even some areas fairly close to the core.

(b) It feels much more difficult (1) to find a scrapyard near hunting-grounds, and (2) to find factories that are generating anything that I want! This difficulty actually short-circuits the economy: the burdens outweigh the benefits.

* One potential bug: Early in the game, I found myself choosing between returning for oxygen and sticking out a battle for a station that I REALLY wanted to liberate. I decided to martyr my ship, and destroyed the guardian moments before the station came online (and before I could access it). To my surprise, when I started my next ship, the station was still demarcated ?? on my map. However, when I flew up to it, it was active and accessible - while still showing ?? on the nav.

* Nerfed shields sucks. (But see my other post on that issue.)

* Warehouses are a great idea in theory... but not very useful in practice. By the time I have sufficiently valuable spare modules to warrant mothballing them in a warehouse, I also have sufficient engines to take me far across space - and far away from the warehouse where I stashed my stuff.

* I'm going to maintain my position on four issues:

(a) We still need the ability to zoom out more. The max zoom-out ratio is still unworkable with the large ship and station sizes involved in J-class gaming. Also, low zoom level + big engines + autopilot + sparse nav stations + hot rocks + Nerfed shields = GUARANTEED DEATH. Seriously, these factors together make autopilot a form of suicide.

(b) Even with the expanded caps, banks are still useless. The prospect of socking away money, at 0% interest, in a single location that I'm likely to forget and/or have difficulty reaching in the future, has no appeal. The only reason I ever liberate them is to add some size to the oxygen environment.

(c) Repair modules are still way too powerful. It is not good that a one-square, easily obtainable, fairly lightweight, free-to-use module attached to my ship can make the entire class of repair stations totally useless. This area is in desperate need of balance: either the modules should be expensive to use (maybe much more so than repair stations?), or very heavy or rare or fragile, or limited-use, or not featuring connectable surfaces, or with a long recharge time, or inconvenient in some other way. (Also... honestly, the "scanning/repairing" animation is super-cheesy.)

(d) Part longevity (how far away you can fly from a part floating in space without the part disappearing) is still too limited. It feels a bit larger this time - you can go a screen or two away from a recently destroyed ship, and it will be there when you return - but it's still too limited. Many times, I've won a battle in a hunting grounds, flown just a little ways for a breath of air, and then returned immediately - only to find all (or, even more mysteriously, half!) of the parts gone. This discontinuity - this revelation of the mundane mechanics of the game, in conflict with the portrayed environment - is really disruptive.

* Graphics glitch: For reasons I don't understand, translocators seem to impose a huge graphics penalty. On medium difficulty, with a fairly large ship (a dense beast of modules about 18 squares x 8 squares in size) covered in boosters, I was able to zoom through space with a totally zoomed-out view at a nice framerate. But my framerate for this same activity took a big hit when I swapped out the boosters for translocators. Given that the animation is really basic and small, this performance hit should be easy to optimize away: e.g., show a simpler animation when fully zoomed out...

* Side-note: For the first time, I found a use for boot jackers. I found a region of I-space with lots of boot jackers who liked Planck shields - which are hardy little modules! I found that if I bombarded them from afar with sniper lasers, the core module died much faster than the shield modules, and I could easily scoop up several with no risk.

* Small feature request: Periodic state saving - not in the "if you die, just reload" sense, but in the "here are the parts of space that you've explored" sense. More than once in v0.3, my ship died unexpectedly and I closed the browser window in frustration... only to realize that I just lost all of my progress!

Whew... hope that's helpful.

[dalaranj]

Jul 27, 2011 8:28:17 GMT 10 sfsdfd said:

* Part selection is very strange. The emphasis on Planck shields comes at the expense of bubble shields: there were PRACTICALLY NONE in this game (notwithstanding guardians, who, of course, take their shields to the grave with them.) And having liberated over 100 stations, I've seen only two (low-ranking) bubble shield factories and not a single Planck shield factory... but probably 10 ramming-spike factories!

Even more extreme: In the entire game, I've yet to see a single oxygen module. Farbs, did you take these out?

* Also, stations generally seem to be more sparse in this space - more so than in previous versions. I think that the growing variety of stations is diluting the prevalence and clustering of ESSENTIAL stations. Two consequences of this:

(a) Seems like the density of nav stations is significantly reduced. There are some parts of space with no nav stations at all - even some areas fairly close to the core.

(b) It feels much more difficult (1) to find a scrapyard near hunting-grounds, and (2) to find factories that are generating anything that I want! This difficulty actually short-circuits the economy: the burdens outweigh the benefits.

You seem to have a great deal of difficulty understanding the concept of procedural generation.

[sfsdfd]

Jul 27, 2011 10:48:42 GMT 10 dalaranj said:

You seem to have a great deal of difficulty understanding the concept of procedural generation.

I understand it perfectly. I'll clarify for your benefit.

Procedural generation is not totally random - it's not "make me a space from these components." It is guided by heuristics, like "place (a) things with about (x)% frequency and (b) things with about (y)% frequency in the space." Of course, there's a tradeoff - more specific rules leads to more uniform procedurally generated spaces - but there are many possible variations for implementing procedural generation.

Case in point: Did you catch the line in the 0.4 whatsnew that reads: "Garage density +60%"?

My comments are observations of the aggregates: not "a particular area of space has problems," but "there are very few (a)'s ANYWHERE in the space." If the community agrees on these general statements, the heuristics can be adjusted, leading to more generally playable spaces.

And just to further dispute your position: Even local problems can be mitigated through heuristics. For example, spaces constructed totally at random might well jam asteroids and hot rocks into the middle of a space station. This can be avoided through an exclusion heuristic.

All clear now?

[dalaranj]

I apologize. I hadn't noticed that you added "feel" or "seem" to each of those statements to acknowledge that you are only experiencing a single instance of the algorithm.

However assuming the only change is a 60% chance increase in warehouses, we know that if the incidence of Nav stations is significantly reduced it is due to a "bad roll".

Honestly, it was stupid of me to discourage posts like that since the best way to determine what parts of the generation are flawed is to get similar input from as many people as possible.

[Farbs]

Cheers for all the feedback!

sfsdf - Were you playing the cumulus map? If so then yeah, there would have been huge spaces between stations. The station clusters, asteroid fields, and areas of blank space are all intentionally scaled up in this type of map to provide a variation on the normal playing experience. It's a bit like how in 0.3 there was an inferno map chock full of hot rocks. These map modifiers are exceptions to the general map generation rules.